emusonacid!

Hi folks,

i have been trying to get something accomplished regarding Loop/Groove type samples (i am not sure what the proper name is here for such samples). By this i mean were you can hold down a single note note and the Emu plays a Bass&Drum (or whatever) loop enabling the player to 'jam' over the top (or whatever purposes he chooses to use it for). There are lots of these in the Emu factory library as well as other sources and i am sure everyone has heard (say) the Mellotron Bank which has Sax/Bass/Drums playing together all off one key. It is this kind of sample which i am refering to here.

Now, its TRANSPOSING these samples which is causing me problems and i have contacted a couple of people who have given me kind advice but it has not fully solved the issue.

So, as i move up the scale the speed increases and the pitch raises. And as i move down the scale the speed decreases and the pitch lowers. Is it possible to have it were as i move up the scale the pitch raises (but speed stays the SAME !!) and as i move down the pitch lowers (but speed stays the SAME) ?? i hope i have explained that ok. So what i mean it the TEMPO of the sample (ie Loop/Groove) remains CONSISTANT while the pitch changes (in semitones) like it would on a normal piano (which it does anyway !!).

Ultimately, what i would like to be able to do is :-

At the bottom of the left hand range on my Nord keyboard (ie. the very bottom few notes) i would like to have each note assigned to different samples (eg. the groove/loop ones). Then while these are playing (which i can hold with the sustain pedal) i can jam along to the loops playing the remaining 6 x octaves on my Nord keyboard.

For instance :-

C0 = Funk Groove #1 @ 120bpm (in C Major)

C#0 = Funk Groove #1 @ 120bpm (in C# Major)

D0 = Funk Groove #1 @ 120bpm (in D Major)

D#0 = Funk Groove #1 @ 120bpm (in D# Major) and so on.............................

So the same groove going up in semitones. But at the moment, because the speed is increasing when i move up in semitones, i am not able to achieve this desired result.

If (as has been suggested) i need to import the sample(s) into another software program and manipulate them that way then i think the whole thing is going to get quite complicated. So i am praying that there is a magic-setting which will resolve this issue.

i have used the NON-TRANSPOSE (ON) function (in Preset Edit TUNING) which has enabled me to move the sample (at its original pitch) to another keynote (which is very handy,) but this only does seem to work when applied to the (i think) ORIGINAL note of the sample in Sample Edit (by this i mean the original sampled note always seems to be on 'Middle C' depite whats its true/actual pitch is). So when applied to other notes it does not in any way solve the problem of the speed getting faster or slower. And obviously the speed of the original sample is perfect !!

The other sugesstion i tried was to use (in Sample Edit) 'TOOLS 4' and select PITCH CHANGE. 100 cents = 1 x semitone, and this does work (up to a certain limited point) with single Voice instruments (like a Synth Lead or a Flute), but when applied to more complex samples (like the Loop/Groove type) it only works about 300 cent +/- (so a 3 x semitone interval eitherway). i also tried a few of the different Algorithm choices but the timbre still deteriorated quite radically with any of them.

Anyway, i will leave it there for now as i am hoping thats enough information for anyone would might be kind enough to help me here.

Best,

Paul

Hi Paul,

the thing you are looking for does not work with the EMU.
I hereby assume that the Loops/Groove consist of Drums, Percussion and minimum one other instrument.

Everything would work if you just would have the Drums & Percussion in the loop and another loop with just the instrument (e.g. a bass or piano sound).
The Drums & Percussion have to be untouched in pitch/tempo while the instrument has to change the pitch while keeping the tempo.
The latter can be done via Tools 4 (Pitch Change).
With separate loops you could layer them on the same keys with Non-Transpose ON for the Drums and the instrument Loop/Groove on the respective pitch.

As I watched some of your videos, I think you have the ability creating the loops by yourself ... in the end without using any pitch shifting algorithm.

Robert

mosrob wrote:As I watched some of your videos, I think you have the ability creating the loops by yourself ... in the end without using any pitch shifting algorithm.

Thanks very much. This is something that i would ultimately like to learn. But at the moment i don't feel i have the knowledge to do so. i have only been properly learning about the Emu for about 9 x weeks now and so i have a long way to go !! i checked out a few members music clips on You Tube and Soundcloud and i was very impressed with their creations. Particularly the Drum&Bass type tracks. Sounds like these guys really understand how to cut-up a groove and put it all back together. Thats the kind of stuff i would like to learn one day.

i did post a thread and contact a few members in my area about tuition but no one seems available. So i will just try and keep chipping away at it !!

If you find the pitch change tool isn't giving you what you need - try this.
Load the loop into Recycle, Soundforge, or a DAW such as Cubase and use their pitch tools, you can do this up to a point befor the sound becomes un-natural, the results depend on how good the algorithms the software uses are.
If you save the transposed loops as .WAV it can then import them into the Emu.

Or buy yourself a Roland Variphrase device.
Link. http://youtube.com/watch?v=_d_R4n00of4

JAHFUNK wrote:If you find the pitch change tool isn't giving you what you need - try this.
Load the loop into Recycle, Soundforge, or a DAW such as Cubase and use their pitch tools, you can do this up to a point befor the sound becomes un-natural, the results depend on how good the algorithms the software uses are.
If you save the transposed loops as .WAV it can then import them into the Emu.

Or buy yourself a Roland Variphrase device.
Link. http://youtube.com/watch?v=_d_R4n00of4

i have Cubase Artist 6 and that has a Transposer function with complex and poly-complex Algorithms in. But have not used it before (though there is a demonstration of it on the Cubase Tutorial dvd).

There is a Roland Variphrase on ebay at the moment:-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Roland-VP-900 ... 2a286627f2

And thanks for the You Tube link. It was very interesting to watch. It terms the limitation the Emu has (with Transposing the samples) as being STATIC in that they only really work at best on the original keynote (i am talking here about samples that contain both Bass&Drums). It was a very sophosticated machine in that it could perform the afforementioned seemingly quite easily. However, at this point i am not really looking to purchase any new hardware and i want to het some good use out of my Emu.

With Wav. file samples (like on Audio Sample type CD's from Time&Space and alike), will i encounter the same problems on these also ?? i notice that a lot of them are sampled at every (say) 3/4 notes of a scale, whereas i am guessing that the Emu loop/groove samples were designed to be played only on one principle note (ie. they only work at the correct pitch/speed from this one note). It would be great if i can assign/play the Time&Space type Audio File anywhere across the keyboard ??

i am guessing that what you need is SEPERATE Wav. files of every instrument, and then you can Transpose which ever ones need Transposing and you can eliminate the drums file. On the Emu Library loops/grooves all the instruments are bundled together so when you Transpose the sample EVERYTHING goes up/down (and its the Transpositions of the drums/percussion which is really messing things up here). With the Time&Space files it looks like they give you seperate instruments as seperate Wav. files.

Hope i have explained that ok !!

Loops with music and drums only really work at the intended root note.
They will always create artefacts once you pitch shift them.

I would forget them entirely and instead focus on building your own loops.

The ingredients are up to you.....
A guitar chop from a reggae track, a flute hit from a jazz tune, a horn stab from a northern soul record, a sax lick from an easy listening tune, a drum hit from a metal track, a bongo/conga loop from a Latin record.

If you arrange these short one shot samples with a sequencer you can create your own flavour.
You are also more able to transpose these short samples without any noticeable artefacts.

The possibilities are endless, and you will know that your tune is unique, not from a sample cd that anyone can use.

JAHFUNK wrote:I would forget them entirely and instead focus on building your own loops.

The ingredients are up to you.....
A guitar chop from a reggae track, a flute hit from a jazz tune, a horn stab from a northern soul record, a sax lick from an easy listening tune, a drum hit from a metal track, a bongo/conga loop from a Latin record.

If you arrange these short one shot samples with a sequencer you can create your own flavour.

Bloody hell, that all sounds really daunting, but i am interested in learning if only on a very basic level. It seems to me that this is what most people use the Emu for. Its just not something i have ever really been exposed to before, and i have not really had any musical friends who delve into this area.

Without wishing to sound like a member of the Stupid Question Club (ha ha !!), when you say about building my own loops using a variety of instrument sound sources, do you mean assigning each of these to individual notes on the keyboard, or combining these rhythmically to create a short (or long) musical phrase ??

BTW:
There had been a CD-ROM from East West called Dance/Industrial Vol. 1 in AKAI-Format. This was at the beginning of the 1990's.
It is a CD-ROM with lots of drumloops and phrases.
Beside the complete loops there were banks that contained the drumkits of every loop ... or let's say that these drumkits has been created out of the loops by slicing the loops and mapping the samples.
This CD-ROM has been accompanied by a floppy disc in ATARI-format, containing the MIDI-files for every drumloop and phrase so that you could modify the loops.

In the late 1980's up to mid 1990's there was a software called Dr. T''s KCS (= Keyboard Controlled Sequencer) where you could create MIDI-sequences and controll/trigger them from the ATARI (and AMIGA) keyboard.
This principle is nowadays used by Ableton Live.

EMU should have made more out of the sequencer that is available in EOS.
Triggering sequences by MIDI-notes would have been a great feature...

when you say about building my own loops using a variety of instrument sound sources, do you mean assigning each of these to individual notes on the keyboard, or combining these rhythmically to create a short (or long) musical phrase ??

Both!
Assign the samples across the keys, then jam with them. You will find the groove will have its own sonic character.
Remember to map each sample over enough keys to alter the root note and perform riffs.
Record the parts into a sequencer and try out variations of the groove, song progressions and arrangements.
Don't get to precious about a sample, if it ain't working try out a new one.

If the one shot samples timing sounds way out as you move away from the root note , you could create copies of it and pitch change them as mosrob points out., this could be used to build an instrument sample that doesn't become shorter or longer as you move around its root.

Keep your ears open for exposed stabs chops and hits that appear without other instrument layers behind them.
These usually make the most usable samples.

If you are worried about breach of copyright then use only recordings that are not effected by these legal issues.
Eg. Music more than 50 years old (pre 1963) plenty to choose from here - blues, swing, rock n roll, jazz, classical, Latin.
Track using latin and swing samples, link.. http://youtu.be/jvQgBrQnqzk

or you can always use library music such as that on the KPM label
Some great sounds can be had from these tunes, even if the music sounds a little cheesy.
Example in Link.. http://youtu.be/G-NR5MvETpY

I know you're a working musician and this can lead to opportunities to get yet more samples.
It's worth considering recording jam sessions with musicians you know. If you split the signal from a guitarists audio channel and capture the whole performance onto a iPod without the other instruments mixed you will have loads of material to chop and process for future use.

mosrob wrote:EMU should have made more out of the sequencer that is available in EOS.
Triggering sequences by MIDI-notes would have been a great feature...

Now that's a good feature to add to EOS 4.8
I live in hope
Any code writers out there reading?

Mark,

Gee, you got it all mapped out dude. And you are very clever !! i had never ever thought of recording jam sessions as you suggest.

This is the kind of thing i would like to work towards. But obviously i need to continue working thru the manual and getting to grips with the Emu.

Welcome to the word of samplers man, were music can be created out of anything.
Organise the rhythms and pitches of old recordings and make something new.
"Music is just... Organized noise"
Here's on oldy but goody
Link. http://youtu.be/3a-eWFSWf8A