emusonacid! legacy

hey all, not sure if this kind of thing goes in "troubleshooting" or "the knowlege", so pardon it's double appearance. i originally posted here if you care to read:
viewtopic.php?t=391

anyhow, i'm just trying to get a free running LFO to sync with my external sequencer's BPM...yes, i fully know how to do it at this point and have done it, but it only works on long sustaining sounds. i play a midi drum kit, and i set one of my drum triggers to be a long sustaining bass sound and the rest to be normal drums. grouping them all together, i could achieve LFO sync but it ONLY worked to the sustain of the bass sound. the short attack drum sounds don't get any modulation (and YES the LFO IS set to free run!)...

it's like free run for the LFO is ignored once you patch the clock divisor to the LFO (and i tried experimenting w/ patching the clock to lfo1trg and lfo1rate...hell, i even tried lfo2 for fuck's sake!!!)

but SOMEONE out there HAS to be using a midi drum track and doing what i'm wanting to do. can someone try this out? PLEASE!!??

first make sure your E4's internal sequencer is set up to recieve external midi clock and be sure to set your sequencer to send midi clock. (note: i'm using Nuendo 2.0)
take a midi drum track, no audio loop, but a midi track with multiple hits and feed it to your E4 with your favorite drum preset. now you got a bad ass drum loop going, right? your sequencer is sending the E4 midi clock, everything is great, right?

so say you wanna set a sweeping filter modulated by a slow sine wave (or even a square) LFO that is synced w/ the tempo of your song, so it's tight.
now go to edit voices, but edit all the voices in a group and just simply set up a basic Filter, like a basic Lowpass leaving the Frequency set all the way up (we'll later sweep down into it), and set up LFO1 to be a free run sine (or square) with no variation and that other paramter set to zero, turn the rate down to really slow (like .26 - .70 or so).
now go into CORDS and first patch LFO1~ to FltFreq with an amount of -100. now you hear the drum loop but with the filter sweeping at the rate the LFO is currently set up at, right? i can get this far w/ my kit.

now you want to sync the incoming midi clock to the LFO so this slow sine wave is BPM matched to your song. the E4 manual says to route a clock divisor to lfo1's trigger start (lfo1trg) with the cord amount anything above zero. we're looking for a slow sweep, so patch a double whole note divisor (i think it's 'dwhole' or something) to LFO1TRG and set the amount to 1 or above. now with me, the non-synced filter sweeping i had before just stops completely...no modulation. turn off the clock divisor modulation by dropping the cord amount to zero again and the non-synced filter sweep comes back. say this didn't happen and your filter is still sweeping, you're now supposed to go in and tweak the LFO1 rate some to get it closer to the rate it's supposed to be at w/ the clock divisor, this one being real slow, so you could try tweaking it up or down some.

the thing is, for me, it doesn't matter b/c the clock kills the free run of the LFO!...no LFO sweeps happen once i set the clock divisor to the LFO! or does it not for you? i've tried this a ton. someone out there has to be doing this, it's a fairly common effect to achieve but for me it's just not working out!??? what do you guys do out there???

i thought maybe using the LFOrate to sync to instead of trigger start (lfo1trg), but that didn't work well either.

i'm confused as all hell but i'm figuring this is basic shit and someone has got to be doing it? how else do people achieve BPM synced LFO modulation between their external sequencer and their E4?

HELP!!!!!

sorry the stuff i said didn't work. I thought that it would. I will take a look at it tonight when i get home. unless some one beats me to it.

Dug -

I think the problem you're experiencing is that the LFO syncs to clock automatically when it's rate is close to MIDI clock - no clock divisor cord is needed.

This requires some math, as you need to figure out the equivalent Hertz valur for the BPM you're at (really really annoying, but simple), then set your LFO to that rate. As long as it's close, the EMU will sync it up automatically.

I forget exactly how the LFOtrg works, but I think it's trying to retrigger the LFO on the clock divisor. This should still work, to some degree, so I'm not sure why it's not working at all for you; I'll have to spend some time looking into it.

But for now, try NOT setting up any cords to control the LFO, doing the BPM-Hz conversion (BPM/60 for the Hz value of a 1/4note), and setting your LFO rate directly to the closest value to that number. This should work.

sweetNESS!, thanks...i'll give that a try. funny, b/c i was thinking to myself, "damn, it seems closer to synced without the fucking CORD patch!". i'll give this a try...the damn manual, well, i have to thank it for giving me the idea that this is all possible, but surely didn't explain it to well. and emu tech support, hah, forget it...
i'll get back with you later on this...thanks

oh, p.s.... so if i got a song at 120BPM, then an LFO rate of 2.0 will sync w/ each quarter note, meaning the lfo runs full cylce each quarter note at this rate, right?

That's right.

One thing to keep in mind is that in this situation free run is really free run - there's no way to set the LFO to return to it's start phase on MIDI 'Play' or anything. So, unless you magically begin each session/take on exactly the same beat (of the endlessly running MIDI clock), the LFO will be effecting your sound differently, since it'll be running in different rhythm compared to what you're playing.

Did that make sense?

oh, and I'll email you today, look for it :)

Klaseed wrote:One thing to keep in mind is that in this situation free run is really free run - there's no way to set the LFO to return to it's start phase on MIDI 'Play' or anything.

Hmmm, i see what you're saying...so it will be in sync BPM wise at least, but where the LFO starts in it's cycle, like starting on the downslope of a sine, or starting at zero, or starting from the bottom going up...that all is fairly uncontrollable. but i would think there would be some way to control even that. i mean, we have LFOtrg as a modulation destination in cords, so there must be a way once you hit play, to send something to this to do an initial triggering of the LFO, although exactly how this could be done, i have no bright ideas yet. HMMMMMMMM HMMMMMMM

right? i mean, i hear tracks that have lfo modulations happening in sync and it sounds like the LFO's starting point is intended, not something random. you know what i mean?, i doubt they are just hoping that the lfo wave starts in the place they'd like it to. unless, that is, that they just record multiple times and then cut out and loop the track that has the LFO wave going the way they want it...but i have a feeling no one does that...

well, i'll rest my brain on it for now...i'm yet to just get the damn thing working right first! i'll see how it goes and see how much of an issue this ends up being. THANX KLASEED once again

http://www.deepsound.net/calculs.html

This place has an online bpm to frequency calculator (towards bottom of page) - This means if you're working at 175bpm you can find out what LFO hz to run at. So if you wanted half note you would set the lfo rate to as close as you can to the given freq - in this case the given freq is 1.458 hz so on the emu set it to 1.49
Locks on great if you use this with MIDI clock but Klaseed is right about Free Run. You may be better off using the modwheel or 'paint' the values in your sequencer.

Ezman

Thanks, I couldn't find that calculator

Now that I've thought about it a bit more, it seems that while my way works, it's got that start-phase problem, and there definitely has to be another solution that will allow controlled use of Free Run LFOs. LFOTrg is the obvious candidate actually, but apparently that doesn't work...

Hmm, this is definitely going to require looking into.

Now I can't wait to get home to my EMU

Klaseed wrote:I think the problem you're experiencing is that the LFO syncs to clock automatically when it's rate is close to MIDI clock - no clock divisor cord is needed.

Klaseed bro, where did you get that info from? For me, it didn't work...i was just at my studio, set it all up, set the LFO rate to be damn close to BPM synced, hit play on my sequencer to send midi clock and the E4 never automatically synced. it just varied in and out of sync (b/c the rate was so close)...i mostly used a square wave LFO, so it was real easy to tell if it was on or off sync. it just kept going from on beat, to slightly off, slightly more off, then slightly better, back to on beat, etc. etc.

i've never attempted recording modulation into the sequencer and automating it that way, but i'm close to giving up on this and trying it that way. but at the same time, i'm pretty driven to figure this out.

Klaseed wrote:I forget exactly how the LFOtrg works, but I think it's trying to retrigger the LFO on the clock divisor. This should still work.

well, in my experience so far, when you patch a clock divisor to LFOtrg, the clock divisor re-triggers the LFO alright, but only over the course of the sustain, which for drums there is none, so i was getting no modulation at all...like it was ignoring the "free run" of the LFO for some reason. but on a long sustaining tone, sure, BPM synced LFO was happening...or at least triggering anyway, i've never seen the actual rate come around BPM synced even playing w/ routing clock divisors to LFOrate.

so what does everyone else do then? say you have a midi drum loop track and you want to give it a slow filter sweep (lfo1->filtfreq) that sweeps slowly over the course of, say, two bars. meaning the lfo rate is BPM synced. this seems to easy to be so hard! what do you guys do? i'm guessing you keep all modulation stuff like this coming automated from your sequencer and forget trying to use the E4 for syncing?
ayyye, it's tough being a techno-drummer.

i just wrote this to EMU tech support. i doubt they can help though
i'm posting it here b/c i think it's the best overall explanation of my problem and what i've tried. don't worry, i will soon give up on this.

"...Ok, you know how the RFX Flanger, for example, can be set to 'system', and when doing that the rate of the Flanger's free running LFO will sync perfectly with either the E4's internal sequencer or an external sequencer? i can achieve this and it sounds awesome. (btw, i use an external sequencer)

but what i want to do is basically achieve this same effect, free-running LFO rate synced to midi clock, but use a Preset LFO. then i could do something like modulate a Filter for example, so that it's rate sweeps BPM synced to the external sequencer...all sorts of cool stuff really, and sounding tight BPM synced.

is this possible? and yes, i've set it all up how i should (set E4's internal sequencer to 'external', set external sequencer to send midi clock, run midi cable) and i know it's set up right b/c, again, on an RFX effect like Flanger, it works fine and sounds great.

off some forums, i've heard that you just have to get the LFO rate very close to BPM synced (using calcuation BPM/60 = LFO hz for 1/4 note) and once you send midi clock, the Preset LFO will sync automatically. tried it, it didn't work. the manual says nothing about this either.

the manual says to route a clock divisor to LFOtrg, and that works, but not the way i want at all. what that does is, first of all, it kills any free running LFO modulation, only works as a 'key sync' LFO. secondly, it only sync's the LFO modulation that happens to the sustain of long decaying sounds. lastly, it doesn't sync the LFO rate, rather it just re-triggers the LFO with the clock, doing nothing to the actual rate of the LFO. in short, it doesn't work either. i'm looking for a free run LFO RATE sync that will work on 'virtually no sustain' drum sounds.

i figured, why not route a clock divisor to LFOrate then? doesn't work either. seems to just alter the LFO's waveform. does nothing to bring the LFO rate to a free run sync (in my experience).

so that's what i've tried. any suggestions?..."

here is one trick, but really it is going to be something you are going to have to figure out how to do it if it is really valid. i am not sure how this would work, but i have an idea.

what we would need to do is take a note that is empty, and trigger that at the desired location in time to make the lfo start how you want. the only issue here is that if the drums hit, you may cause the samper to retrig with those hit. what we need to do is get some way to make it so you can trigger with only one note and the rest would leave the lfo alone, but be modulated. what would be neat is to have a global lfo that modulates everything, but could be controlled from one preset.

one other idea is to have a foot switch, and have it so you can tap it and start the lfo when you want it to start. now that would mean you would need to route the footswitch midi control to lfo trig, and then you would have to incorparate one more extra movement in your drum routine. that may be an issue.

and of course there is drawing stuff in. i am going to be working on making some new sounds, so i am going to play around with this.

i still think drawing is the best solution. but it will be killer if you get this sorted. i will look into things alittle as i am sure most are.

sampleandhold wrote:one other idea is to have a foot switch, and have it so you can tap it and start the lfo when you want it to start.

good idea, i do have a foot switch i could use for this purpose. but we're a little ahead in theory here as I still haven't got the LFO's rate to sync in free run to a drum track yet at all, so i'm not even to the point of having to worry about the randomness of the LFO's free run in relation to my song!! did you read my email above to EMU? that explains where i'm at. i'm not even to this point yet, but thanks for the idea of using the footswitch once i am

sampleandhold wrote:and of course there is drawing stuff in.

yeah, don't worry, i'm close to giving up and just doing that. but it's odd, you know? the RFX Flanger, for example, i can set that to sync to 'system' or whatever, and that does exactly what i want. it sets the free run LFO of the flanger to sync perfectly w/ my incoming midi clock! it sounds great! but if an RFX LFO can do it, why not a Preset LFO? you know? so the way everyone achieves this effect i'm assuming is by just drawing it in or using a controller of sorts, huh?

sampleandhold wrote:i am going to be working on making some new sounds, so i am going to play around with this.

aw sweet...MANY thanks! i've tried about everything, posted on this forum, on another run by that guy Rich of tweakheadz.com (he hasn't even replied to this problem), i wrote EMU, called EMU, tried it in every way i know, and no luck yet. so anyhow, i appreciate the help!

i can get the lfo to sync some what. try to use the arp to get the thing to match. i beleive that is how i have gotten my sampler to sync, of course that is with a key trig lfo. there was a thread about it in here from the early days. i think all you have to do is go into arp, set the bpm, then hit stop, then hit done. once you have your rate set proper, you should be able to get it to sink.

however

two concerns about free run.

1). the lfo does not retrig when in free run, i spent an hour trying to get it to work. so as far as i know it is not possible to get the damn thing to retrig.

2). given the "fact" that the lfo doesn't seem to retrig even if connected to a chord that does that function, then one must wonder if the free run negates the arp sync trick...

i will continue to mess with it. i am in sound design mode seems how i am unhappy with certian aspects of one of my songs and i am now redoing those section, this means it is time to experiment. so i might run into something.

had one idea. this will make you laugh. but then maybe you are an incredible drummer. set up velocity to control the filter. so when you drum lighter it hits the same loudness just filtered out. you could in a way just drum lighter and lighter causing the effect of the filter to close. but this idea makes me think it would be hard. but then drummers are incredible at what they do.

An extremely clumsy work around to get filter syncing to an lfo over a few bars. Requires RFX.

Assign the kits voices to a seperate output. Plug a cable directly from this out to the samplers input (whilst machine is off otherwise you will get nasty feedback problems) - alternatively you can route it back in if you are using a mixing desk. Make a new preset with one voice in it and change this voice to 'Sampling ADC' in the 'Voices-Main' page and assign it to the main outputs (or whatever you are using other than the drum kits output).

You will only hear you drum kit preset when a key is played in the new preset. You can assign a long LFO rate in this new preset and it can be key sync as well. All you need to do is play one long note in the new preset and experiment with LFO rates there.

Of course this wont work for pitch modualtion but it will work for filter and amp modulation. It will semi resolve the problem of where the lfo starts as you can shift the note forward or back in the sequence. You can even set up tastey long evolving envelopes in this new preset.

Just be very careful with feedback and make sure you check exactly where your rfx bus outputs are routed in the 'RFX Bus' screen.

ok guys, thanks for the help, but i'm finally giving up
i tried setting the arpegiattor to "free run" as a last resort and this didn't help. i'll wait for EMU's email back, but i doubt it will help. i guess i'll just have to draw it in like you guys all do! i have found that some really cool shit can happen though when using a midi foot pedal as a controller. some tasty effects that most drummers just dream of...diggin that for sure.