emusonacid! legacy

Hi,

I'm trying to figure these out for days now. I'm trying to shape drum sounds currently and I'd like to have a very short attack, a small hold time which will be adjustable, and a decay to zero again which will be adjustable aswell.
I set up my AADDRR like this:


rate value
Attack1 0 100
Attack2 40 100 (this is my adjustable hold time)
Decay1 29 0 (this is my adjustable decay time)
Decay2 0 0
Release1 0 0
Release2 0 0


Altering the Attack2 rate doesn't do anything at all. I really don't get it. Also I can't have a two stage decay :/

What am I doing wrong?

Also setting Attack1 to rate=127 and value=0 doesn't do anything, the sound will start immediately.

edit: I did a small video showing the bug: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3ydupjM ... e=youtu.be

edit on February 4th 2014: Final Preset after all this discussion attached, explanation here: viewtopic.php?p=18723#p18723

rate value
Attack1 0 100
Attack2 40 100 (this is my adjustable hold time)
Decay1 29 0 (this is my adjustable decay time)
Decay2 0 0
Release1 0 0
Release2 0 0

im pretty sure this is not a 'bug'. just think about what you're doing.. attack 2 can't do anything because attack 1 rate is already at zero to value of 100. It goes directly to the max value of 100, so how is attack 2 going to then go back to 100 at a rate of 40? does it make sense to have a 2nd attack when the first, primary, attack is at zero? not really!

same thing with decay 2.. you have decay 1 going to a value of zero.. how would there be a decay after that. where is it going to next? set a value!

i don't think you're thinking of 'hold time' right. i don't know what you're trying to achieve but i can see from the env configuration why it is not working. if you want an adjustable 'hold' then you're more likely to achieve this with decay as opposed to attack. if you draw this envelope out you'll get a visual idea of what is really happening

If the note on trigger is only momentary and the sample is not playing to its end then all the magic happens with release settings.
if you are wanting a variable note on length to play the sounds then the rate and level settings of decay 2 (sustain) are the ones you want to experiment with, remember to set decay 1 level to max (level not rate)

override wrote:

rate value
Attack1 0 100
Attack2 40 100 (this is my adjustable hold time)
Decay1 29 0 (this is my adjustable decay time)
Decay2 0 0
Release1 0 0
Release2 0 0

im pretty sure this is not a 'bug'. just think about what you're doing.. attack 2 can't do anything because attack 1 rate is already at zero to value of 100. It goes directly to the max value of 100, so how is attack 2 going to then go back to 100 at a rate of 40? does it make sense to have a 2nd attack when the first, primary, attack is at zero? not really!

same thing with decay 2.. you have decay 1 going to a value of zero.. how would there be a decay after that. where is it going to next? set a value!

i don't think you're thinking of 'hold time' right. i don't know what you're trying to achieve but i can see from the env configuration why it is not working. if you want an adjustable 'hold' then you're more likely to achieve this with decay as opposed to attack. if you draw this envelope out you'll get a visual idea of what is really happening

Watch the video again and don't think about the hold time. On certain values the sound disappears instead of following the envelope. This makes absolutely no sense and every other synth I have does this correctly. If I set a decaytime to 127 it should do that for "127". If the level parameter is set to an almost equal value like the parameter before or the rate is too short, then that parameter simply get's disabled instead of doing what's dialed in.

You can recreate that using any sound. I tried today with 10 sec sampled noise and it's the same behavior, no matter if the key is sustained or not.



and for the envelope I want to achieve:


whereas the hold time and the decay should be adjustable. This is simply not possible with the emus envelopes - unfortunately :(

Man I just watched your youtube video and it was painful .
You have to approach the emus envelopes a little differently than a standard synths ADSR, consider it a multi stage envelope like that of a Roland Alpha Juno and some other Rolands of that time.
Apart from the fact that the envelope transitions are linear and not exponential (as found on an analogue synth) the envelopes are good, an expoential option would have been better (ah well perhaps in EOS 4.8 )

If you tell me the approx env over time settings you want I will post the settings for you as a start point.
1.Could you show time and note off in a graph because the posted graph is unclear on this.
2.Does hold equal note on sustain? ie infinite.
3.Aren't decay and release values actually a 2 stage release after note off?
4.Or do you want all this from a momentary note on?

According to Jahfunk:
The AADDRR envelope of the EMU is a multi-stage envelope!

If you're looking for the behavior of an ADSR envelope, you have to use the following settings:

Attack 1 Rate...= Attack Time
Attack 1 Level..= 100
Attack 2 Rate...= 0
Attack 2 Level..= 100
Decay 1 Rate....= 0
Decay 1 Level...= 100
Decay 2 Rate....= Decay Time
Decay 2 Level...= Sustain Level (= Hold Point when the key is pressed)
Release 1 Rate..= Release Time
Release 1 Level.= 0
Release 2 Rate..= 0
Release 2 Level.= 0

You have to use the same Level value for Attack 1, Attack 2 and Decay 1.
The Level of Release 2 has to be the same as of Release 1.
With this settings Attack 2, Decay 1 and Release 2 are apparently disabled.
As the said stages have the same Level value as the previous stages, it doesn't matter at which rate the envelope should change the level from one stage to the next stage.
The respective Level has already been reached. That's it.

As an alternative you can also use the following settings for the Attack-stage:
Attack 1 Rate...= 0
Attack 1 Level..= 0
Attack 2 Rate...= Attack Time
Attack 2 Level..= 100

With this alternative settings you just have to set the Levels of Attack 2 and Decay 1 to the same value instead of having a look on the Level of Attack 1.

mosrob wrote:As the said stages have the same Level value as the previous stages, it doesn't matter at which rate the envelope should change the level from one stage to the next stage.
The respective Level has already been reached. That's it.

This explains a lot, not exactly why that stage "fades in" the more you alter the level but it makes somewhat sense. So I assume a true holdstage during the keysustain is not possible?

if you use a looped test tone and hold the key down instead of rapidly triggering the sample you'll start to hear what the changes you're making are really doing. better yet route the your env to adjust pitch + 100 in the chords to hear what is actually happening when you adjust the various settings!

so your video.. you had something like

Attack 1 00 100
Attach 2 99 100.. Here attack 1 is being ignored because and the envelope is starting to try to climb to 100 at a rate of 99 - no sound because your sample is short and ends before the env can open up enough to hear it

then changed to

Attack 1 00 100
Attach 2 99 99. now attack 2 is being ignored because attack 1 is already at the max level. so you start to hear something. env goes right to 100

at least that is what i think may be happening based on a look at your video..but you're changing a lot of parameters fairly quickly so i may have overlooked something.

Still not totally use what you mean by 'holdrate/true hold'. Hold aka sustain occurs at Decay 2. Once decay 2 reaches it's set level it will sustain until the key is depressed. the manual does a decent job of explaining the 6stage envelope imo so check that out if you haven't already.

I think you misunderstood the stages of the envelope (as do I ) Attack2 comes after Attack1

i misunderstand is your use of the envelope :D
seriously though now you are just becoming annoying. think about what you're doing and what the values represent. use the same example as above but set attack 1 rate to 1 (not zero) and try it. see/hear the difference and try to understand what might be happening

route it to pitch so you can hear what your changes are doing

No offence mate, but we're talking about samplers and this is not a topic to start a fight about imo.
Your post doesn't make sense to me:

Attack 1 00 100
Attach 2 99 100.. Here attack 1 is being ignored because and the envelope is starting to try to climb to 100 at a rate of 99 - no sound because your sample is short and ends before the env can open up enough to hear it

I'm not a native speaker, but this sentence isn't even complete and the level already is at 100 due to attack1 being "00 100".

secondly:

Attack 1 00 100
Attach 2 99 99. now attack 2 is being ignored because attack 1 is already at the max level. so you start to hear something. env goes right to 100

yeah it is at max level, so it should drop down to level 99 at rate 99 and it doesn't do that. Also this makes no sense for me

edit: I btw tested this with a 10 sec noise sample and it doesn't make a difference.

edit2: also it's also clarified that what I want to do is not possible with the emu envelopes as stages get kinda deactivated when set at a level near that of the stage before. This is sad but I can live with that and I will have to do my drumsampling duties in the computer unfortunately.

@ JAHFUNK:

Noteon is from attack to release in the graph above. Important for me is the holdtime, a short amount of time (a few ms!) the amp is held at a constant value. After that the decay may start. I thought this would be possible by setting attack 2 to the same level as attack1 and defining a time it will stay there. But the emulator thinks different. It deactivates that stage. Every straight "line" (or very near that) in the envelope gets deactivated instead of processed.

no worries and no hard feelings - it is just frustrating because i'm apparently not expressing this in a way that is easy for you to understand. and i did make a mistake in my last post, however it was not about which env goes first etc. hopefully you'll see as you read on..

using your initial settings from the video you can hear what is happening with a test tone. I will explain in the best detail I can. all of this is happening because you have DECAY 2 set to LEVEL 0

so first:
Attack 1 00 100
Attack 2 99 100

ATTACK 1 to 100. The ENV goes directly to the max value of 100. Attack 2 RATE doesn't matter because you are already at 100 there is nowhere left for the envelope to go. So, now we are out of the attack stage. next the env moves to the decay stages. You have DECAY 1 and 2 set to Rate and Level of 0. SO the env immediately goes to a level of zero (and no sound is passed through).
Now play with your decay settings. Keep the Attack settings above and adjust DECAY 2 rate or LEvel and see what changes. Look your sound is back! (why? because you had basically set the envelope basically bypass these and go directly the next stages which were all set to levels of 0.. Simply put, your envelope settings make the sound decay to a level of zero at a rate of zero. This means there is no sound passed at all

Next:
Attack 1 00 100
Attack 2 99 99

Now, why do you have sound with these settings? because Attack 1 took you up to a level of 100 but now Attack 2 is going DOWN from 100 to a level of 99 at a rate of 99 (or whatever you set the rate to) before it goes to DECAY 2 (ie sustain) at a level of 0 (eg no sound). you have imposed a 'gate' if it helps to think of it that way. it doesn't matter that attack 2 occurs after attack 1. you're telling it to go somewhere that is different than where attack 1 goes.. so you hear the sound briefly as if it were gated. Just because attack 2 occurs after attack 1 doesn't mean that the LEVEL has to continue to go up. In fact, you set the LEVEL of the envelope to go down here, and that is what it does. I assume by 'holdtime' you really mean gate

i am still confused about what you are really trying to achieve here.. but i'm pretty certain it is not impossible to get the effect you want. i don't think you're focusing on the correct parts of the envelope. if you want decay/hold then you need to think about the decay 1 and decay 2 settings. you can adjust these rates to get the 'hold time' you're talking about. I hope this clarifies things. its certainly not a bug. you just need to slow down consider what you're doing. In the case of this example changing one tiny value (attack 2 level) is drastically changing what is happening to the shape of your envelope. you're correct that the envelope stages are deactivated if nothing is changing. that is why in the first example there is no sound and why in the second example (when you change the level of attack 2, the attack 2 stage is activated and you hear something for the length of time 'ie the rate' that attack 2 is set to)

If you're trying to get a 'gated' sound (holdtime?) then you can probably try this:

Attack 1 00 00 (we don't need it)
Attack 2 00 100
Decay 1 X 00 the rate of X will determine the length of the gate
Decay 2 00 00
Release 1 00 00
Release 2 00 00

Now make a cord and set ModWL -> VEnvDcy -100%. you should be getting longer gates as you increase the value of the mod wheel. if this is what you're going for you can then adjust the cord amount to suit your needs

ja-ki wrote:@ JAHFUNK:

Noteon is from attack to release in the graph above. Important for me is the hold time, a short amount of time (a few ms!) the amp is held at a constant value. After that the decay may start. I thought this would be possible by setting attack 2 to the same level as attack1 and defining a time it will stay there. But the emulator thinks different. It deactivates that stage. Every straight "line" (or very near that) in the envelope gets deactivated instead of processed.

ja-ki print this out and use it to check what you are doing.

If you want the amp to hold for a few milliseconds at a constant value and then continue through the envelope cycle (this is a little different than a sustain setting) then try setting all the hold time stuff with the attack 1 & 2 settings.

-------------------Rate-------------Level
Attack 1---------00----------------100
Attack 2--------100 ----------------99

This will give you a hold time that can be adjusted by altering Attack Rate 2
Bring rate 2 up or down from this setting for your exact hold time requirements, remember it will go to 127 which is quite a few seconds.
Admittedly the amp value is very slightly dipping during the hold time (only by 1% and it's not noticeable in my opinion)

The hold time can be further lengthened once the max rate of Attack 2 has been reached by reducing the value of Attack level 2 down to 98 and so on.

For even longer hold times - have the value of Attack 2 rate at the highest setting and gradually bring down the value of level 2 until the desired hold length is achieved.

To test the length you are programming use a looped tone and program settings of 000 on all decay and release envelope points, this way the only sound that you hear is what the amp is letting through as a result of the attack settings (hold). Once you are happy with the hold time you can move on to set the decay and release values as required.

Of coarse you could instead create a infinite note on sustain by setting Decay 1&2 level to the sustain value you need but you would then require a sequencer to provide the note on/off command because a manual trigger would give inconsistent gates and this would alter the hold duration befor the release portion of the envelope.

As I was saying, the Envelopes are like multistage affairs just because they are labeled Attack Decay it does not mean they have to have a higher value that reduces over time they can go up - down - up - down at any point depending on how you set the level values.
However if the level values are similar you will find that the transition to the next value may happen very quickly even with the highest rate settings, if you find that this transition happens too quickly (even with a max rate setting) then unfortunately the level value of the following envelope point has to be set a little further from the value of the preceding one.
I find this is an acceptable limitation but I do wish the rates were exponential.

JAHs suggestion is the first logical option. unfortunately the hold time (aka gate time, whatever) cannot be modulated with a midi controller or patch cord routing using that env set up. if you want realtime control adjusting the VEnvDec is the closest way to do it.. the alternative is to adjust Attack 2 Rate manually/"live" with the data wheel from the amplitude envelope window.